tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post2624884674837292533..comments2024-03-24T05:42:24.847-05:00Comments on Taking Wing: Earning My KeepSam Weigelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06332414897030323612noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-76216909792124383812008-12-27T07:09:00.000-06:002008-12-27T07:09:00.000-06:00Trying to make sense of pilot pay? Good Luck... I...Trying to make sense of pilot pay? Good Luck... In a related vein, try to make sense of an even worse disconnect between CEO salaries compared to their employees:<BR/><BR/>"In 1970, CEO salary and bonus packages were typically about $700,000 - 25 times the average production worker salary; by 2000, CEO salaries had jumped to almost $2.2 million on average, 90 times the average salary of a worker, according to a 2004 study on CEO pay by Kevin J. Murphy and Jan Zabojnik. Toss in stock options and other benefits, and the salary of a CEO is nearly 500 times the average worker salary, the study says."<BR/><BR/>Personally, I think this is another sign of an economic system that will crash - or maybe I should write, "is crashing?"...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-78243605058825460612008-12-22T22:53:00.000-06:002008-12-22T22:53:00.000-06:00What a great blog! I agree on most points..should ...What a great blog! <BR/><BR/>I agree on most points..should be printed out and posted in our crew rooms if you ask me...<BR/><BR/>I do not know if you are aware of it, but in Europe most airlines (regional and major) hire their (future) pilots before these have even seen a flight deck from the inside, train them and put them onto airliners with a total time between 150-250 hours. And we are talking about RJ's, Dash's, Airbus', Avro's, Boeings etc.. everything in the 50-250 pax range.<BR/><BR/>This is significantly different to the way it is done in the states, and I guess the training itself is probably as different as the EU vs. US philosophies on that matter.<BR/><BR/>(Ab Initio Airline training from day 1 vs. the private, commercial, cfi, instructing modular path).<BR/><BR/>Both ways produce good pilots. Both systems have their pro's and con's.<BR/><BR/>However I don't think younger pilots are not as "safe". What do 1500 hours of experience in a Cessna 152 during VMC conditions help you in the low fuel holding scenario you described so wonderfully in your post? Nothing, I think! Not all experience is good. Not every flight hour contributes to it. Some build up "bad" experience..as in "I've done it so many times and it worked, even though it's risky...".<BR/><BR/>I also do not think that pay can be directly related to safety, or to creating "better pilots". <BR/><BR/>Eventhough the money is an important aspect, what should really be improved are the flight time limitations, the monthly rosters and with that the quality of life.<BR/><BR/>Now concerning the shortage: As long as people are willing to pay their own typeratings or even pay airlines to get flight hours I don't see it coming, not here in the EU. <BR/><BR/>Keep on posting, it's great to read!<BR/><BR/>feWorldpilothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05128060626469536927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-32451612093906093272008-12-19T17:11:00.000-06:002008-12-19T17:11:00.000-06:00What a tool.What a tool.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14147714446076460699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-68524730899225599832008-12-18T17:24:00.000-06:002008-12-18T17:24:00.000-06:00Thanks, that's all i wanted!Thanks, that's all i wanted!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-34203116449556860952008-12-18T13:08:00.000-06:002008-12-18T13:08:00.000-06:00OK, you win. I AM a top notch ass. Congratulations...OK, you win. I AM a top notch ass. Congratulations on ferreting that fact out of one sentance of one post of 500. I salute your perceptiveness, sir.Sam Weigelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06332414897030323612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-70891099328713422412008-12-18T12:40:00.000-06:002008-12-18T12:40:00.000-06:00Just recognizing your awesomeness as a Captain. T...Just recognizing your awesomeness as a Captain. The way it was written about you being comfortable with him landing on a snow-covered runway in Minneapolis make you sound like a top notch ass. The only difference between you and the FO is your seniority.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-77942076967262054842008-12-18T12:17:00.000-06:002008-12-18T12:17:00.000-06:00Sure thing, right after lessons on how to wear the...Sure thing, right after lessons on how to wear the cap at a jaunty angle and how to flirt with flight attendants. With my help, he'll be a real pilot someday!<BR/><BR/>/loves anonymous flamebaitSam Weigelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06332414897030323612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-63591508378005146392008-12-18T09:59:00.000-06:002008-12-18T09:59:00.000-06:00That was nice of you to let the co-pilot land the ...That was nice of you to let the co-pilot land the plane. You're a great captain for letting him do that. He must have been thankful at the end of the flight. Are you going to teach him to land smooth next time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-85340107087270175752008-12-16T02:27:00.000-06:002008-12-16T02:27:00.000-06:00I believe that what we get paid for isn't our flig...I believe that what we get paid for isn't our flight time totals, our skill in making a feather-soft landing, or our ability to manipulate the controls.<BR/><BR/>We get paid for our decision-making ability. We get paid for knowing when it's time to pay attention to those hairs on the back of your neck. Re-read your own post with that in mind. :)<BR/><BR/>I think you also get paid for taking on full responsibility for a $100 million, 100 ton aluminum tube filled with a couple hundred people hurling through the air at nearly the speed of sound.<BR/><BR/>Either that, or you get paid because you just look so dapper in that uniform. :)Ron Rapphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11025275588683573445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-56520713144176591992008-12-15T14:08:00.000-06:002008-12-15T14:08:00.000-06:00One more thing - most seem to have interpreted my ...One more thing - most seem to have interpreted my comments about wages as applying only to regional carriers. I was referring to the depressed wages at majors, as well. The wages at regionals have always been crappy but pilots have been willing to endure them because the payoff of a job at a major was so lucrative. The payoff is no longer what it once was, so now pay at the regionals is relevant. One or the other has to come up or there will not be enough pilots in the pipeline on the next upturn (refer to zb's interesting comments on control theory).Sam Weigelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06332414897030323612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-24994685983717462162008-12-15T14:03:00.000-06:002008-12-15T14:03:00.000-06:00Good comments all. I don't have a whole lot to...Good comments all. I don't have a whole lot to add - we've had the whole union argument before and I don't feel like getting into it right now. Like Rick, I feel that unions are absolutely necessary in this business, but there are certainly some valid points about the weaknesses of today's unions, particularly in the airline business. I'll get around to a post about that subject sometime soon in the future.<BR/><BR/>I do want to address Jim & Anonymous' comments about the free market. Essentially, with all leverage out of the unions' hands (for a variety of reasons), it IS the free market that is determining wages at least at regional carriers. In 2007-early 2008, they came very close to being forced to raise wages to attract new pilots because there was such a shortage. They were "saved," if you want to call it that, by the high price of oil and then the present economic downturn. Majors stopped hiring so attrition dropped to zero, most regionals' growth stopped, and airlines started cutting 50 seaters, and the collapse of several carriers meant there was a sudden glut of experienced pilots on the job market. So, from a completely free market standpoint, you're right - there's nothing to support pilot wages going up *right now*.<BR/><BR/>That wasn't the point of the last paragraph, however. There is still a severe pilot shortage coming. We saw the beginnings of it before Age 65 and this downturn postponed it 3-5 years. The shortage will be worse when it returns, I think; nearly 10 years of depressed pay, stripped out contracts, on-and-off furloughs, and skyrocketing training costs are making it less and less lucrative to go into flying. In this economy, there are very few willing or able to drop 50k+ on training, and far fewer lenders willing to borrow it to would-be students. Jim, yes, right now it's still attracting "enough." When the cycle goes the other way, though, there won't be nearly enough that are qualified. That should bring up wages - yay for me! - but because there's significant lag time between starting training and being qualified for an airline, there will be a great many regional cockpits filled with what woefully inexperienced first officers the airlines can scrounge up, for a while at least. That was the point of my last paragraph.Sam Weigelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06332414897030323612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-43053790598352460822008-12-13T21:23:00.000-06:002008-12-13T21:23:00.000-06:00Great post, well written & engaging.Jim has it...Great post, well written & engaging.<BR/><BR/>Jim has it right on the subject of pay, however. It's fundamentally a supply & demand issue. People want to fly because it sounds sexy and interesting. Your posts don't dispel the allure. So long as a sufficient number of new pilots enter the industry and are willing to work on the terms offered, your wages will not go up. And with nothing but capacity reductions and pilot furloughs in the near future, this won't soon be changing.<BR/><BR/>If you want to see your wages rise, start writing about what a crappy, terrible, miserable job you have, and how no one in their right mind should do it ;) But somehow I think you're a bit more honest than that...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-23766830919170119282008-12-12T14:08:00.000-06:002008-12-12T14:08:00.000-06:00Same weather/runway situation on Sunday night. It...Same weather/runway situation on Sunday night. It wasn't fun watching you guys slide around from up stairs.<BR/><BR/>tower guy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-52722694974727845412008-12-11T08:48:00.000-06:002008-12-11T08:48:00.000-06:00I'm fundamentally a free-market person, and so I'd...I'm fundamentally a free-market person, and so I'd like to comment on:<BR/><BR/><I>I can tell you this: the current level of pilot compensation is not attracting many new people into the industry.</I><BR/><BR/>My question is: Rather than "attracting many", is it "attracting enough"? If yes, then the pay is adequate. It may not be what the individuals would like to get, but they chose a job the really wanted to do, and accepted the package that came with it.<BR/><BR/>I agree - yes, the entry-level pay rates suck. But that's not the airline's problem - go kick your union in the ass if you don't like it. Alas, the unions would have to give up something else to get more pay for the young guys, so they'll keep throwing the young guys under the bus.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-80835528777477556892008-12-10T08:47:00.000-06:002008-12-10T08:47:00.000-06:00Excellent post!Excellent post!Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02424381735735546894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-81168673613125778942008-12-09T20:32:00.000-06:002008-12-09T20:32:00.000-06:00Hi Rick,Thanks for the suggestion. If I get a chan...Hi Rick,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the suggestion. If I get a chance, I will check those out. I always enjoy reading about the life of pilots, especially back in the "good old days."<BR/><BR/>For the record, I didn't say I have a problem with unions, or even that I think they aren't neccesary. If you read what I wrote, you'll see that I *only* said I have a problem with their current policies, specifically basing advancement on seniority, and the way they have COMPLETELY failed to look out for entry level pilots.<BR/><BR/>This is pretty typical of all unions, these days, most of which have turned against their roots and have become just another big concentration of power that is abused by the leaders at the expense of the rank and file.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I was working on my commericial when 9/11 happened. I decided it wasn't going to be a very good career choice, and gave up, but I really do have sympathy for pilot pay. And no, my decision had nothing to do with pay, it had to do with job prospects, which I note are made worse by unions, not better. I had no intention of working in a field where no matter how good I was, I'd be furloughed if I wasn't high up enough on the seniority list.<BR/><BR/>If you want people to become pilots, perhaps give them the hope of being able to feed their families in the years before they fly big jets, and give them some hope that hard work and competence will lead to a better job quicker.Jonathan B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14821866465896490465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-53016357823644111682008-12-09T19:44:00.000-06:002008-12-09T19:44:00.000-06:00Jonathan and Fred I respectfully suggest you both ...Jonathan and Fred I respectfully suggest you both read "Flying the Line" Books One and Two by George E Hopkins (Author) available from Amazon Books and elsewhere to gain better insight to the origin of pilot unions. As someone who has been part of the industry for 35 years now I can assure you only the names and color of the planes have changed in the interim. Please post back after having done this I would be curious to see if your opinions have changed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-86257977731776877062008-12-09T11:40:00.000-06:002008-12-09T11:40:00.000-06:00Wow, GREAT post, Sam. Not that all your others are...Wow, GREAT post, Sam. Not that all your others aren't great, but you know what I mean! :-)<BR/><BR/>I agree with the last commenter about unions; I loathe them in general and would only consider them useful in a miniscule set of circumstances. But that's not the point of your post, I don't think.<BR/><BR/>That your job is difficult is not at question (from flying the Level D Boeing 767, I have a small taste of what it's like to fly a jet around; and all the systems work all the time in my sim!) but perception is more important than reality and there's where those unions bite.<BR/><BR/>The greater questions surrounding the economy and long-term airline viability are complex enough to require experience and knowledge that I don't have so I won't comment beyond saying, there will be interesting times ahead (President-elect Obama, call your non-existent office.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14147714446076460699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-65445998725773290152008-12-08T23:19:00.000-06:002008-12-08T23:19:00.000-06:00In theory, I have tremendous sympathy for pilots n...In theory, I have tremendous sympathy for pilots not getting paid enough. In practice, I think you guys screw yourselves with the unions. Why should we support more pay for pilots, when it only goes to the senior pilots, and when the unions do everything they can to avoid having ability even remotely come into the equation of compensation?<BR/><BR/>The hardest flying jobs are the least senior, and so no matter what you guys get paid, the guys flying commuter props and RJs will get paid shit.<BR/><BR/>When the unions create a pay system based entirely on the amount of time one has been working in the job, with no consideration given for ability, it doesn't really make the flying public support the idea of higher pay, because it doesn't sound like we'll get safer pilots. Just richer ones.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I'd be happy to pay more for tickets if it meant that pilots were paid more, especially on the props. But I don't think it would result in safer pilots.Jonathan B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14821866465896490465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10991135.post-68830288689213415152008-12-08T15:32:00.000-06:002008-12-08T15:32:00.000-06:00It's funny how little is said about control theory...It's funny how little is said about control theory during the current economic events. What makes the crisis interesting, from a nerd's point of view, is the <I>timing</I> issues. Many market analysts only seem to look at proportional (immediate) effects, neglecting all the issues of dead times and delays. While the whole world seems to be talking about sustainability, I hardly notice any real efforts towards good, planned-ahead decision making, which is just what control theory cares about.<BR/><BR/>Your words about future pilots delaying school or altering their decicion in favour of a different career are a really good example. There's a delay involved, and this delay might bite our behinds just when we don't need it.<BR/><BR/>Another example might be the amount of time it takes for a jet engine to develop thrust after the lever is pushed. If pilots wouldn't consider this, many go-arounds would lead to nasty consequences. There's a link to corporate policies here, as well: During slow times, companies should invest in their infrastructure. They should use the time to keep their machinery well maintained, they should train their staff. As soon as better times show up at the horizon and there's an increased demand in the books, everything is good to go and there will be a huge advantage compared to the companies that saved their infrastructure to death.<BR/><BR/>Needless to say: The stock market is probably the place that cares least about timing issues a.k.a. control theory and thus, by its design, is the place that messes up things in a very efficient manner.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com